Frequently asked questions regarding professional licensure of geologists

1. Has the public been harmed because the occupational group has not been regulated?

Yes, there is unfortunately a recent example of loss of life that occurred due to lack of adequate geological input to a public works project. The sudden and catastrophic collapse of the NYS Thruway bridge across the Schoharie Creek in 1987, resulting in ten fatalities, is attributed to scouring of the sediments from beneath the footings of the bridge. The bridge builders did not understand the geologic ramifications of narrowing the Schoharie Creek flood plain by roughly eighty percent during construction of the Thruway. Consesquently, the bridge footings were undermined during very high flooding of the Schoharie Creek, allowing the footings to tilt. When the footings moved, the columns supporting the bridge on the footings also canted and structural integrity was lost. Other, non-fatal, examples generally involve increased construction or remediation costs and damage to the environment with attendant public health risks. Public water supply projects fail to reach design potential. Municipal solid waste disposal areas must be re-excavated and re-designed. Ground water leaching from improperly sited landfills poses a threat to private water wells.

A. To what extent has the public's health, safety, or economic well-being been harmed?

As mentioned above, in the most extreme case loss of life has been documented to occur because of the lack of adequate geological input. However, harm to public welfare often occurs in a more subtle form. The status quo is that any person, regardless of experience or training, can assume the title of "geologist" and/or offer geological services. Since geological analysis impacts so many current issues including resource development, delineation and protection of public water supplies, waste disposal, private development, and infrastructure construction, it is clear that sound geological information, interpretation and advice is critical. The harm to the public's health, safety and economic well being has been in the form of improper data collection, poor interpretation and/or inaccurate advice regarding site selection for a wide range of private and public facilities. The harm also often involves poor representation provided to advocacy groups representing a particular point of view regarding public or private development.

Geological services are used, directly or indirectly, by virtually every citizen of New York State. Individuals may seek the advice of a geologist regarding the land stability or flooding potential of property for a new housing site. Municipalities may hire geologists to provide advice on how best to develop and manage a water supply system. Counties often engage the services of geologists in order to identify a suitable location for a landfill or to characterize conditions surrounding existing landfills. Attorneys hire geologists as expert witnesses in a wide range of civil litigation activities. At the level of state government, geologists are on staff at the Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation, and the State Geological Survey. These geologists provide information on the basic geological materials of New York and the suitability of those materials for commercial extraction and use in the construction of roads, bridges, schools, airports and the like. Scientists such as these provide the state with information on geological hazards, ground water quality and remediation of hazardous waste sites. In addition, New York State enters into contractual relations with a host of private geological consulting firms to provide services such as described above.

Similar to any group of professionals such as medical doctors or lawyers, geologists work both under the supervision of other, more experienced geologists and, given sufficient education and experience, on their own.

A. How much skill and experience are required in making these judgements?

To properly provide geological services, formal training and competency examination is required. Training is comprised of a Bachelor's degree in geology from an accredited four-year college or university. The requirements for a geology degree demand appropriate course work in geology as well as physics, chemistry, mathematics through calculus and in many cases, engineering. A large number of geologists have advanced degrees to the Masters level and a growing number have PhDs. Several years of practical experience are needed to provide a person with the proper background to make sound geological judgements.

B. Do practitioners customarily work on their own or under supervision?

As is the case with other professions, practitioners of geology in New York customarily work either under supervision or independently.

C. If supervised, is supervisor covered by regulatory statute?

No. Currently a supervisor of geologists is not covered by regulatory statute. This will be the case, however, under the proposed legislation.

Yes. The American Institute of Professional Geologists (AIPG) is a nationwide organization established in 1963 to ..."establish professional qualifications for, and evaluate continuously the ethical conduct of geological scientists. Further, the Institute shall establish ethical standards to protect the public and the geological sciences from non-professional practices." The AIPG was organized under the concept of peer-based certification and oversight of the profession. Many geologists in New York, having met the AIPG's stringent standards for membership, have been accepted into the Institute.

A. To what extent has it been accepted and enforced?

Nationally, in excess of 5000 geologists are members of this organization. The monthly publication of the AIPG, The Professional Geologist, routinely carries articles dealing with ethical issues and actions taken regarding activities of AIPG members who violate the organization's standards. The AIPG, however, has no jurisdiction over non-members who proclaim or promote themselves as Professional Geologists and that is why this legislation is proposed.

The aforementioned AIPG program provides certification to assist the public but outside of the geological community, the AIPG is but little known. Certainly the fact that roughly half of the states have adopted individual licensure legislation attests to the fact that AIPG certification is not a substitute for licensure at the state level.

Currently, roughly half of the states require licensure of geologists in some form. A few others have established "site professional" programs to regulate practitioners who certify the acceptability of certain types of geologic work. At the national, non-governmental level, the National Association of State Boards of Geology (ASBOG) was created in 1991 to promote public protection in matters of geological practice. ASBOG serves as the connective link with individual state boards, thus improving professional competence and ethics. However, in order for ASBOG to serve the public, a state board of geology must be in place. Twenty-seven states currently require professional geologists to register, although criteria vary. Of these, 20 are ASBOG member states and legislation is pending in four more. Most ASBOG states use the two-part ASBOG exam (Fundamentals and Practice). However, for this non-governmental certification program to be applicable to geologists in New York State, a state board of geology must by established via the proposed legislation.

No. No such laws or standards exist in New York.

No. No such laws or standards exist in New York.

Yes, "certification", "registration", and "licensed site professional" alternatives have been considered. Certification can be defined as the process by which a governmental or non-governmental agency or association grants authority to use a specified title to an individual who has met certain predetermined qualifications. The word "certification" is used to refer to governmental title control. Under such a certification scheme, individuals would be prohibited from using the title "certified geologist" unless they have first secured permission to use that title from the responsible governmental or non-governmental agency. Some pre-entry review is likely and decertification can be undertaken upon proof of misconduct. However, those who have not sought or secured advance permission to use the title may offer geological services or engage in the public practice of geology but may not use the title. Confusion is engendered because private associations and trade groups also grant "certification" to practitioners who have attained entry level competence in the broad areas of responsibility of a given occupation. This level of competence may not be uniform nor may it meet the level of education and experience desired by the State of New York.

Registration is a poorly-defined term that may mean title control or simply mean a law requires all individuals who wish to engage in a given occupation to register with a designated governmental agency. Registration usually involves only listing one's name and address and payment of a fee. As a rule, the law does not require the individual to pass an examination or show that he or she has met any predetermined standards, although bonding is sometimes required.

Further, the concept of a "licensed environmental professional" or "licensed site professional" has been examined. The goal of such programs is to insure that hazardous waste and related sites be properly investigated and remediated because of the threat to human health and the environment and also because of the high cost of such projects. These concepts, adopted in Connecticut and Massachusetts, involve privatization of the remediation of environmentally-impacted sites. However. these programs are limited in scope. While environmental remediation is one of the concerns of the geological community, the practice of Professional Geology would encompass a broader spectrum of services that routinely impact the human health and the environment on a daily basis.

Licensure is generally defined as the process by which an agency of government grants permission to an individual to engage in a given occupation. Such permission, if granted, is issued upon finding that the applicant has attained the minimal degree of competency necessary to ensure that human health, safety, and welfare of the public will be reasonably well protected. Thus, the licensing agency is responsible to review qualifications and administer examinations. In addition, there are recognized accrediting bodies which review the higher education programs of the potential practitioners. National examinations for licensed professions, including Professional Geologist, are generally available. Individuals who have not secured permission in advance from the responsible governmental agency are prohibited from engaging in the regulated activity.

Licensure will also provide a means by which disciplinary action can be taken against professionals not practicing in accord with established guidelines.

The public looks to geologists to solve problems relating to land use and management such as solid waste disposal, ground-water protection, hazardous waste site remediation, sea-level rise, potable water supply development, and public works projects to name just a few. Licensure is particularly important for a regulatory- or service-driven industry where there may be few tangible factors to evaluate. Geologists evaluate natural resources such as oil and gas, and natural hazards like earthquakes, landslides and subsidence, erosion, and flood, all of which have documented occurrence in New York State and have financial impacts of tens of millions of dollars. Professional licensure is a credential by which New York State and the public can recognize a practitioner's capabilities in advance of the performance of services. Licensure is a mechanism to make the individual practitioner responsible for the results of services.

The proposed regulations provide for education, experience and legal responsibilities for professional geologists.

A. What standards are proposed for granting credentials?

The proposed standards require Bachelors level education and four or five years of experience (advanced degrees, whether Masters, or Masters plus Doctorate may be substituted for one year of experience), and successful completion of a comprehensive written exam.

B. Are standards job related?

Yes, the standards require that the Bachelors degree be in the academic field of geology and the work experience also be in the profession of geology.

C. How do these standards compare with those of other states?

These standards are the same as or very similar to those of adopted by other states.

D. If the standards differ from those of other states, can the difference be justified?

In those cases where the proposed standards differ from those of other states, the proposed standards are parallel to national standards developed by the National Association of State Boards of Geology (ASBOG).

E. Are there training and experience requirements?

Yes, a Bachelors level education is required as are four or five years of experience. Advanced degrees, whether Masters or Masters plus Doctorate, may be substituted for one year of experience.

F. Are there restrictions on where or how experience may be acquired? Why?

No, where or how the experience is acquired is not restricted but the experience must be in the field of geology.

G. Will alternative routes of entry be recognized?

Yes, the proposed legislation provides for flexibility by the Board of Geology absent the specified requirements.

Yes, at the discretion of the State Board of Geology.

No, as currently proposed, not automatically.

Yes.

Does an examination already exist?

Yes. The National Association of State Boards of Geology (ASBOG) has developed a two-part test (fundamental and practical) which is widely used in the United States. Currently, 27 states require licensure or certification in some form. Of the 23 states that require licensure per se, 20 are members of ASBOG and require the ASBOG test. Pennsylvania, the most recent contiguous state to adopt geologist licensure legislation, uses the ASBOG test. Attachment 1 lists the states which require licensure, certification or registration and the year that legislation was adopted in each state.

Does it meet professional and legal testing standards?

Yes. The test by ASBOG was created with the aid of test-development professionals and senior geologists nationwide to assure the professional and legal credibility of the test. In addition, the test is periodically reviewed to determine the continued suitability of the test.

In a method exactly analogous to the professional engineers, the State Board of Geology will assure that credentialed individuals will maintain their competence.

A. Will license or certification carry an expiration date?

Yes, licensure will require renewal every three years.

B. Will renewal be based solely on the payment of a fee?

Renewal will be based upon the payment of a fee barring adverse action against the applicant by the Board of Geology.

C. Will renewal require periodic examination, peer review, evidence of continuing education or other procedures for continued competence?

Yes, professional geologists must maintain educational experiences satisfactory to the Board and in accordance with the Commissioner's regulations.

The proposed regulations require that professional geologists be of good moral character as determined by the Board. Unethical or illegal practice would not be deemed in keeping with "good moral character" and hence would be grounds for suspension or revocation of license.

No. The profession of geology is a mature business in New York due to the extremely active environmental services industry in the last three decades and a much longer history of activity in the oil and gas and mineral industry. Regulations will not increase the cost of geological services to consumers.

No, regulation will not decrease the availability of practitioner of geology. Geological consulting firms and geologists employed by engineering consulting firms have been present in New York for decades. The services of these competent practitioners will still be available to the public and governmental agencies

Senator Carl Marcellino (R, 5th dist)

Assemblyman Steve Englebright (D, 4th dist)

A. Are members of the public sponsoring the regulatory program?

The concept of licensure of geologists has received initial support from statewide members of the financial and real estate community, and the Eastern Society of Professional Land Surveyors, the New York State Consulting Engineers Council, the Mohawk Hudson Chapter of the American Society of Civil Engineers, and the New York State Society of Professional Engineers.

B. What associations, organizations, or other groups in the State represent practitioners?

Geological practitioners in New York are represented by the Buffalo Association of Professional Geologists (BAPG), the Central New York Association of Professional Geologists (CNYAPG), the Hudson Mohawk Professional Geologists' Association (HMPGA), the Long Island Geologists (LIG), the New York State Geological Association (NYSGA), the Society for Mining , Metallurgy and Exploration, Adirondack Section (SME), the Empire State Concrete and Aggregate Producers Association (ESCAPA), the Northeast Section of the American Institute of Professional Geologists and the New York State Council of Professional Geologists (NYSCPG).

C. Approximately how many practitioners belong to each group?

BAPG - 300

CNYAPG - 125

HMPGA - 125

LIG - 700

NYSGA - 600

SME - 100

ESCAPA - 300

NE-AIPG - 250

NYSCPG - 300

D. Which of the above groups are actively involved in sponsoring regulatory programs?

BAPG, CNYAPG, HMPGA, LIG, NYSCPG

E. Are other groups supporting the effort? If not, why?

Negotiations are in progress with several professional groups to garner support for this regulation. The statewide association of land surveyors has vowed support as well as the local chapter of the American Society of Civil Engineers. Conversations with the largest representative of the engineering community in New York, the NYS Society of Professional Engineers, has elicited support for this legislation.

Geologists are seeking regulation in furtherance of the protection of the health, safety and welfare of the public and the environment.

Yes, geologists are seeking regulation because they are indeed prevented from rendering services which they are uniquely qualified to offer. This is not so much a result of "scope of practice" statements of other occupations but the requirements of various state agencies that only "licensed professionals" may bid on and render certain services. Since they are not members of a "licensed" profession in New York, geologists are prevented from offering services for which they are qualified. The following synopsis recounts the most recent activities undertaken by geologists in New York to address this difficulty.

In or about the Winter of 1994-95, an environmental consulting firm located in the mid-Hudson Valley was denied permission by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (NYSDEC) Region 3 to perform remedial work utilizing bio-remediation. The denial was reportedly based on the fact that the firm was not a New York State Registered Engineering Firm and was not authorized to practice "engineering" in New York pursuant to State Education Law. The firm appealed this decision to the NYSDEC Executive Office. The Executive Office appointed an internal "Task Force" re: The Department's Use of Non-Professional Engineer Professionals for Site Investigation and Remediation Tasks to look into the situation and to formulate a policy regarding what work had to be performed by engineering firms and what work could be performed by "Non P.E. Professionals".

The Task Force conducted a series of meetings in the Spring of 1995 and solicited input from stakeholders in both the public and private sectors. The Task Force prepared a "draft" report dated May 26, 1995, which was transmitted without a clear indication that it was indeed a draft. This report was viewed by many stakeholders as being both inaccurate and biased. The report and the credibility of the Task Force was challenged by many stakeholders. Additional meetings of the Task Force and stakeholders occurred in June and July of 1995 with little of no progress in resolving the concerns of the stakeholders. As a result of the apparent lack of satisfactory progress, a meeting was requested and held with a Deputy Commissioner at the NYSDEC in the Fall of 1995. As a result of that meeting, the Deputy Commissioner replaced the Task Force with an Environmental Services Working Group (the "Working Group").

The Working Group consisted of NYSDEC technical staff, representatives of other state agencies (NYSDOT, NYSED, GORR, etc.), and representatives of the private sector (industry and consulting firms). The Working Group consisted primarily of professional engineers and geologists. The Working Group met on a number of occasions between March and June, 1996. As a result of these meetings, the NYSDEC developed an internal draft "policy" regarding what work could be performed by "generic" environmental consulting firms and what work had to be performed by an engineering firm. This policy underwent several rounds of internal drafting and review at NYSDEC. It was never submitted for external review and was never finalized. The Working Group was allowed to drift into non-existence by the end of 1996. The issue remains unresolved to date.

B. Is the occupational group seeking licensure in order to gain reimbursement under federal or state programs or private insurers, i.e., Medicare or Blue Cross?

No, geologists do not provide human health services.

C. Is the public seeking greater accountability of the occupational group?

The general public is not clamoring for greater accountability from geologists because much of the work done by geologists is not known or visible to the public. For example, remediation activities at hazardous waste sites are deliberately enclosed and secured from the public for health and safety reasons. Other geological investigations take place underground or at restricted construction sites, also off-limits to the populace at large. If indeed a layperson or group who hires a geologist to represent a particular point of view to, for instance, a governmental agency, that person or group has no criteria by which to judge the performance of that geologist. In many cases, geological services, being regulatory- or service-driven, may lack tangible factors by which to evaluate performance. In this case, it is the responsibility of those who offer such services to assure that full measure of value is given and it is the responsibility of state government to provide the legal framework within which such services can be regulated.

William M. Kelly 1/17/99

ATTACHMENT 1 Geologist Registration States

From the October, 1998 report of the annual meeting of the National Association of State Boards of Geology

*Practice regulation is licensure in the sense of the proposed NYS legislation